Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Rachel Moore Best

WEBVTT

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Hey there. Welcome, and for those returning, welcome back to How I Met Your

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Data. I'm Sandy Estrada, here with my co-host, Anjali Bansel.

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We're your guides through the ever-evolving world of data where the community

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is as diverse as the stories we share.

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From hands-on practitioners to the ecosystem supporting them,

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we bring you insights and conversations that cover everything data-related.

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get comfy, and let's dive in.

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Music.

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Hey everybody, Sandy here. Before we get into the episode, I just wanted to

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share some bittersweet news with you.

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After this episode, I'll be stepping away from how I met your data.

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I'm diving into an exciting new venture that's going to take up more of my time

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and focus, and while I'm thrilled about what's ahead, it also means saying goodbye

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to this incredible space we've created.

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The good news, though, is the podcast isn't going anywhere.

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Anjali is going to continue to lead the conversations, and she's bringing in

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a couple of fantastic co-hosts and involving the show in new, exciting ways.

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I can't wait to tune in as a listener. But I just want to take a moment to say thank you.

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This podcast started as a singular idea, something Anjali and I took a huge

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chance on, and I am incredibly, incredibly proud of what we've built.

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It may be a small community, but it is one that truly resonates and it means

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absolutely everything to me.

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I'm proud of the space we've created, the conversations we've had,

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and the guests we've brought on, ones who aren't just the same voices you've heard everywhere else.

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We know there's so many podcasts to listen to.

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So again, thank you for the support, the questions, the conversations.

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It has been an absolute honor to be in this space with you.

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And don't worry, this will not be the last you hear from me, so stay tuned on that.

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All right, enough about that. For today's episode, we have Rachel Moore Best,

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the founding partner and lead strategist for The Human Factor.

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Her group works with individuals at every level of organizations as they navigate

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conflicting goals, organizational complexity, and human dynamics to solve tough

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challenges and build effective, sustainable teams.

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Rachel is currently a lecturer at MIT Sloan and MIT School of Engineering,

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where she teaches power in a negotiation and negotiation and influence for technical leaders.

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Her notable clients include Disney, Nassau, and Boston Children's Hospital.

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Rachel is one of those individuals that I know one day I'll be able to turn

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around and say, I first met her when, and I am so excited to have had this opportunity

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to speak with her now for the second time.

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So without further ado, let's get into the episode.

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Music.

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All right. So, Rachel, thank you for joining us here at How I Met Your Data.

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When I met you, I was LinkedIn. I did some searching on negotiation as a topic

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and found you on LinkedIn.

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I was absolutely just surprised by your resume, by your background, by everything you do.

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And I couldn't help myself but beg you to join us at Women in Data,

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which I lead the local Boston chapter for women in data.

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And I asked you to come present to the women there just because your topic is

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so needed today, especially in the realm of, for us, at least data analytics is very complex, right?

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We have engineers who do very technical work and we have to help business people

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understand how to leverage data to solve business problems.

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And in the middle of that is a,

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world of negotiation and renegotiation and conversation.

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So when I heard about you and your focus and your work, I was just blown away

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and could not help myself but get to know you. And I'm so glad I have.

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And we have now this opportunity to share your insights with our listeners here

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on How I Met Your Data. So thank you for joining us.

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Oh, I am so thrilled to be here. And it was just a LinkedIn message out of the

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blue, but we had such a great conversation with Women in Data.

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And I'm excited to also connect with more of your network through the podcast.

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Awesome. So maybe we could start at the beginning.

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As I said, your career journey has been absolutely fascinating to me.

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Do you mind sharing a little bit about how your path led to teaching negotiation

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that's specifically to engineers?

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Yeah, definitely. So I have a different path into negotiation than is typical.

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There are a few of us who are not lawyers, but we are few. Many people come

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through law school, negotiation, mediation, those kinds of skills are critical

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in law school curriculums.

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And so a lot of people come into the path of negotiation through law school.

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I didn't, on the other hand. I actually, I went to school originally to study

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music and learned very quickly I would be terrible at being a barista and trying

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to maintain my living as a musician.

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And so I did end up married to a musician later. So, you know, it comes around.

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But and so in school, I was really searching for a way to leverage both the

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creative side of my brain, as well as this analytical side of my brain that

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told me I didn't want to be a barista.

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Right. And so I got into school and eventually found myself graduating with

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a degree in design and computer science.

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And so started out in a place where I was using the design part of my brain

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to really kind of understand the people involved. And then the technical side

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of my brain to explore and really push the boundaries of what we were trying to do.

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And that led me to take a job in New York City, moved to New York City straight out of undergrad,

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worked there for a while, and again, kind of found myself in this place where

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I was constantly in the middle, similar to what you just described,

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of you've got account people on one side, you've got creative on the other side,

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maybe you have a technical side.

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And I'm sort of ending up in the center because I had, I would not say I was

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trilingual in that case, but I was trying, right, and trying to really translate

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between those different parties. I eventually realized that that career path

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that I was on wasn't for me.

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And I started thinking about what it would look like to move into something

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that felt a little bit more connected to my long-term interests.

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And my long-term interests were to do things that really helped people.

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And that led me to graduate school. And my original intention was to go to graduate

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school and get my master's in engineering at MIT, which I did.

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But I thought that was going to lead me to developing cool new technical products

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and bringing the human lens in.

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As I had started out, you know, that was my intention. And what I learned in

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graduate school was there was this massive gap of technology.

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Technical folks who didn't have

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access to the skills of negotiation and influence, persuasion, advocacy.

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And so you'd have these amazing projects, great technical expertise,

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and we wouldn't have necessarily the ability to get it across the line.

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So I took a negotiation class my first semester in graduate school,

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and my professor and I are friends now, actually work with colleagues, we teach together.

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And so we joke a lot that that was sort of a pivotal moment for me was a fork in the road.

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And in graduate school, really just the negotiation piece to me was the missing

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layer that I think I'd been searching for in all of my past experiences.

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And so I got involved in the negotiation community.

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I started out as a TA. I worked my way into designing a class for MIT that I

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now teach. I'm lead faculty on that.

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And getting to bring negotiation skills into that technical environment,

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still leverage my bilingual technical language as well as the human language,

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has been incredibly rewarding.

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And so I teach, I consult, but the negotiation piece is really where I kind of found my perfect fit.

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I love how you describe it as not just, I think a lot of people would hear this

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and be like, oh, negotiation is just getting what I want or meeting someone in the middle, right?

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And I love how you reframed it as influence and advocacy, all these other things

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that you need to have in order to get your very technical idea across the line

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to maybe a community that doesn't speak the same language, right?

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I do love the way you frame that. I'm curious, though, you mentioned that it

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was extremely rewarding.

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What aspect of it do you find extremely rewarding?

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Of working in negotiation or teaching negotiation? Teaching it.

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I think the biggest thing about teaching negotiation is that I get to facilitate that mindset shift.

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From the idea that negotiation is adversarial or confrontational,

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that it's what you want and what I want, and we're going to figure out how to split it.

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And if I want to do well, that means taking more from you and gaining more for

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myself, sort of zero-sum mindset.

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And the most successful negotiators are actually people who are incredibly collaborative

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and who engage in the conversation and find ways that they can deliver value for the other side.

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And for me, that's a hard, it's a hard lesson to communicate because we still,

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we get under pressure and we still feel like we have to protect ourselves.

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But when you can make that, when you can turn that corner and you can see that

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negotiation is not always combative, but it is figuring out how you get what

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you need and also help others get what they need.

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Man that just opens up the possibility for

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great relationships and that I

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think is is a massive difference in our workplaces and

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our families and our neighborhoods yeah absolutely I I find that like it's always

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it's not always it's just it always ends up being for for the person who needs

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something from another group right let's let's keep it in the engineering realm

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because that's where your focus is, right,

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at MIT, and that's really what our listeners are probably.

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The backgrounds are more on the data engineering side. But I guess my thought

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here is that it's intriguing because when I've worked in data and analytics

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for a very long time, I started in engineering.

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I moved across primarily because I can communicate well.

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So all those like soft skills, right, those leadership skills that matter,

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it came natural to me in a lot of ways.

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So I was able to take that on and move forward in my career because of that.

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But I do see a lot of very smart engineers out there who, if they could just

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tell their stories differently, if they could just communicate them differently,

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they would be super successful.

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So my question to you is really around, like, from an engineering perspective,

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do you find that in teaching them negotiations, they're also learning their

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communication skills as well or working through those?

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Definitely. Storytelling is a huge part of negotiation. If you think about it,

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if I frame something to you as, you know, you know, we have this deliverable

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that we need to put together? Can you work the weekend?

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You know, that's very different than if I frame it to you as,

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hey, you know, we're really going to push hard as a team, but,

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you know, we're going to deliver something of really high value,

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you know, or that's maybe not a good example, but how you ask the question matters,

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right? How you present the request matters.

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And it's possible that you can actually create more resistance in the other

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party just by how you ask.

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So it might be that the content of what you're asking isn't the problem.

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It's how you're asking the question or making the request.

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And so I think the big shift is making sure that you understand enough about

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the other side to be smart in how you frame and tell stories.

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That's so true. That's so true. So what, I guess, what leading through that,

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right, what you just stated, what are some tactics for someone to get smart about the other side?

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Yeah, for sure. I think the key thing is you have to prepare as much as possible.

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And that might be 20 minutes. It might be a conversation with someone ahead of time.

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It might be three minutes on the back of an envelope while you're on your way somewhere.

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But stopping and asking yourself what your assumptions are about the situation

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and about the other person.

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Writing down what you think they care about. Thinking about what you care about

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and how to frame what you care about through the lens of what they care about.

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But then going into that situation with an open mind, right?

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So having the preparation so that you have thought about it ahead of time,

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and that's going to help calm our sort of default reactions that might not serve us in the moment.

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But then also once you get in, ask really good questions and confirm that your

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assumptions are true or not, that what they care about is true or not.

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Because I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see people make is they assume

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they know enough about the situation on the other side.

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And if that's the case, then they can really double down on their perspective

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or their approach and they miss all the signals from the other side that it's not working.

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Those are great. Those are great. Anjali, how many times do we tell people to

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just use their assumptions and put them aside for a minute and just affirm or

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reaffirm, like make sure that those are accurate before you lean into something?

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Exactly. I mean, there's a great analogy, you know, what does,

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you know, assumption really stand for, right? And, you know,

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kind of putting those aside.

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But then also one of the things that, you know, I've worked with organizations

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to try to coach, you know, coach like our business versus the technical folks into, you know,

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going into healthy conversations is thinking about what is relevant to the other,

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you know, to the other party, and what they would also like to get out of the negotiation.

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So one of the things that I had been taught, you know,

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just kind of coming through my career has been the concept of give to get and,

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you know, be prepared to let go of some of the things that you believe you need

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in order to get to get to an agreement with with whoever you're negotiating with.

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Is that a principle that that you also subscribe to? Are there different thoughts around that practice?

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Yeah, so I think there's a couple of different ways to interpret what you're talking about there.

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The first thing I thought you might be highlighting as you talked about this

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idea of give to get is the idea of reciprocity. And that absolutely holds up.

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If I come at you with a bad attitude, I'm gonna get a bad attitude back.

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If I come at you generously, and that might just be in sharing information or

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being willing to listen, then I'm more likely to see those kinds of behaviors back towards me.

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Robert Cialdini does some amazing research on reciprocity and has highlighted

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that it's almost automatic.

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If I do something nice for you, you're probably going to do something nice for me.

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It might not be right away, but you're probably going to see a little bit of

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that back and forth start.

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So that, I would say, is absolutely solid.

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The idea of, you know, be willing to give up some of the things you care about

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in order to get what you really need, I think it depends on what you care about, right?

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If what you care about is, you know, speaking the most or, you know,

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feeling like you have the most power, yeah, you might have to sacrifice some

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of those things to really get into a powerful conversation.

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But it is possible in a lot of cases to find ways to satisfy a lot of your needs

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and the other side's needs, which I think is a shift in how we think about negotiation.

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It doesn't have to be that we're figuring out how to compromise appropriately.

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It's we're really trying to figure out how to collaborate. I'm wondering,

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like, does that answer the question? Does that? It absolutely does.

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Yeah. I mean, like, when we, you know, just, you know, when we've talked about

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give to get, it's in different fashions, right?

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One's from like a sales perspective, right? Like what in that contract negotiation

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are we willing to maybe be a little bit more flexible on than we are on paper, right?

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Versus that reciprocity and, you know, being generous with one another.

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When we're asking, like, you know, in the data governance world,

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half the time we're asking people to take on new or different responsibilities.

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So how do you then have that conversation to say, please do this in addition

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to the millions of other tasks on your list.

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And in return, this is the benefit that we'll all receive.

00:16:30.856 --> 00:16:35.676
Yeah, for sure. And strategic concessions is a great part of negotiation strategy,

00:16:35.856 --> 00:16:39.136
figuring out what you're willing to, in your case in the contract,

00:16:39.376 --> 00:16:43.036
what are you willing to be flexible on? And that's an important part of your preparation.

00:16:43.356 --> 00:16:47.316
What I see happen sometimes is that people conflate that over to that being

00:16:47.316 --> 00:16:49.196
their primary negotiation skill.

00:16:49.396 --> 00:16:52.216
And they walk in and they say, okay, I really need these three things,

00:16:52.216 --> 00:16:56.036
but I guess I'd give up two of them in order to get the one.

00:16:56.396 --> 00:17:00.076
And that can, it can just stunt our ability to get a great deal.

00:17:00.296 --> 00:17:04.756
And the mindset shift is really moving over into a space where you can ask yourself.

00:17:05.721 --> 00:17:10.021
How can I create more value here? How can I figure out what it is that they

00:17:10.021 --> 00:17:14.241
care about and find ways to offer them value that might be totally separate

00:17:14.241 --> 00:17:15.321
from the things that I want?

00:17:16.061 --> 00:17:20.181
And collectively, we can find the best solution instead of feeling like I have

00:17:20.181 --> 00:17:23.501
to decide which of the things on my list am I going to lose in order to get

00:17:23.501 --> 00:17:24.901
them to take on that task, right?

00:17:25.161 --> 00:17:30.261
To add that task to their list. You know, maybe they care a lot about meeting somebody that you know.

00:17:30.461 --> 00:17:35.281
Or maybe they care a lot about having flexibility on a meeting schedule.

00:17:35.521 --> 00:17:38.961
And that doesn't have to cost you anything, but it could create a lot of value for them.

00:17:39.541 --> 00:17:44.401
Sure. I love that. Yeah. I love the way you frame that because you're spot on.

00:17:44.521 --> 00:17:47.681
A lot of people lean in on, here are the three things we have to get in this negotiation.

00:17:47.921 --> 00:17:50.961
But number one's the thing we're not going to let go of, right?

00:17:51.061 --> 00:17:54.821
And they always have one item that it's like, the line stops here.

00:17:55.061 --> 00:17:58.981
And I don't like, I personally don't feel comfortable in those situations because

00:17:58.981 --> 00:18:02.821
then it becomes a zero-sum game, I feel like, versus taking the approach of

00:18:02.821 --> 00:18:06.421
getting to understand the individual and what drives them and what they're trying

00:18:06.421 --> 00:18:08.681
to achieve. What are their goals in this conversation?

00:18:08.981 --> 00:18:12.741
And then what are my goals in this conversation? And being open up front about it, right?

00:18:12.881 --> 00:18:15.981
Like if you're open and up front about like, hey, here's what I need to do to

00:18:15.981 --> 00:18:17.721
look successful. Here's what you need to do.

00:18:18.301 --> 00:18:20.841
Let's just meet some, let's just figure out what that means,

00:18:20.921 --> 00:18:25.441
like in terms of what we're trying to do here. And I find that that approach gets me where I want.

00:18:26.001 --> 00:18:28.841
I'll get all three items usually if I don't do

00:18:28.841 --> 00:18:31.961
it that way which goes back to exactly what you're saying earlier right

00:18:31.961 --> 00:18:34.861
you're nice to them they're going to be nice to you and I find that if I'm transparent

00:18:34.861 --> 00:18:39.301
about what I want right and why I need it and and why this is going to be good

00:18:39.301 --> 00:18:44.981
for them they're transparent in in the same return in regard let's get into

00:18:44.981 --> 00:18:49.401
it though because you have you have a process it's got a few points but I was

00:18:49.401 --> 00:18:51.801
wondering if you mind sharing some of that for our listeners.

00:18:52.632 --> 00:18:55.692
Yeah, think about negotiations. Yeah, definitely.

00:18:56.072 --> 00:19:02.912
So I think about negotiation in sort of three phases. The first is in preparation.

00:19:03.392 --> 00:19:07.992
And the second one is in the conversation itself. And you might have to iterate

00:19:07.992 --> 00:19:11.212
back and forth to those two phases. It might be more than one conversation.

00:19:12.152 --> 00:19:15.932
Preparation is really important for you to be able to frame the conversation

00:19:15.932 --> 00:19:20.812
and know what data you're going to present, know what you are really what you

00:19:20.812 --> 00:19:23.472
care about, what your walkaway is, right? What's your alternative?

00:19:24.192 --> 00:19:28.652
In the conversation, then you've got a dynamic person who's sitting across from

00:19:28.652 --> 00:19:30.772
you. So you have to be prepared to navigate that.

00:19:30.972 --> 00:19:35.412
And then the third phase is how you're going to reflect on the negotiation.

00:19:35.412 --> 00:19:39.632
And you always want to make sure that you, after you have a negotiation,

00:19:39.892 --> 00:19:44.032
even if it's a conversation with a team member or somebody who's on a different

00:19:44.032 --> 00:19:48.392
team that you're trying to engage with on your project, after you have that conversation,

00:19:48.792 --> 00:19:53.332
take 45 seconds, longer if you have it, but, and ask yourself,

00:19:53.492 --> 00:19:54.552
you know, okay, what, what worked?

00:19:54.552 --> 00:19:58.872
What helped me in that situation and what got in my way.

00:19:59.432 --> 00:20:06.412
And by just taking a minute to reflect, you're creating a space where now you can develop new skills.

00:20:06.712 --> 00:20:10.172
And without that reflection piece, it's just really hard to grow.

00:20:10.612 --> 00:20:15.072
And so three phases, prep, then in the conversation, and then in reflection.

00:20:15.572 --> 00:20:20.172
And there are concepts that help you in all of those phases,

00:20:20.852 --> 00:20:23.612
but those are the main phases of how I think about it.

00:20:24.329 --> 00:20:30.669
Got it. Got it. And one concept I remember you sharing with us was around understanding

00:20:30.669 --> 00:20:32.749
what you're negotiating about.

00:20:32.909 --> 00:20:37.889
I think that was like one thing that really my eyes opened up because I didn't

00:20:37.889 --> 00:20:42.049
realize all the different things you have the ability to negotiate on beyond

00:20:42.049 --> 00:20:45.909
just the topic itself. I think we all just focus on, I'm negotiating,

00:20:46.209 --> 00:20:47.389
like, for example, a contract.

00:20:48.589 --> 00:20:53.229
But you kind of opened up the frame there a little bit and said,

00:20:53.309 --> 00:20:55.369
hey, look, you're not just negotiating your contract.

00:20:55.529 --> 00:20:59.629
You're actually negotiating a lot of things that lead up to that final negotiation.

00:20:59.829 --> 00:21:03.089
Can you share some of that for us? Because I personally got so much out of that

00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:06.289
part. And I think it's important for our listeners to hear this.

00:21:06.909 --> 00:21:10.649
Yeah, definitely. One of the things that I learned as I was studying negotiation

00:21:10.649 --> 00:21:14.869
was that you have a negotiation on the content of the deal.

00:21:15.049 --> 00:21:19.129
This is, you know, the terms that are going to go into your contract or it's

00:21:19.129 --> 00:21:20.389
the timeline on your project.

00:21:20.769 --> 00:21:24.969
It's the actual content of it. But then you also are negotiating on the process.

00:21:25.029 --> 00:21:27.149
How are you engaging in this conversation?

00:21:27.409 --> 00:21:31.049
How are we going to figure this out? Are we going to collaborate?

00:21:31.289 --> 00:21:34.669
Are we going to test some things or is it someone's going to make a decision?

00:21:35.089 --> 00:21:36.789
And then you also have the relationship.

00:21:37.729 --> 00:21:42.249
And that's the previous relationship you have with that person or the future

00:21:42.249 --> 00:21:43.729
relationship you have with that person.

00:21:44.089 --> 00:21:48.709
And the relationship is incredibly valuable. And so by thinking about those

00:21:48.709 --> 00:21:53.049
three different components of a negotiation, if you run into a barrier in one

00:21:53.049 --> 00:21:56.329
of them, you can shift and focus on something else.

00:21:56.709 --> 00:22:00.069
But you also may find out that you're going into a negotiation thinking that

00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:01.469
it's really about content.

00:22:01.729 --> 00:22:05.189
And turns out, you know, they agree with you on content. Content's probably

00:22:05.189 --> 00:22:06.909
fine, but there's some other aspect.

00:22:07.389 --> 00:22:10.329
That you really need to get into. And I've seen a lot of,

00:22:10.889 --> 00:22:16.289
of teams specifically get really blocked on how they are making decisions and

00:22:16.289 --> 00:22:19.789
how they are conducting the work much more than the work itself.

00:22:20.769 --> 00:22:26.269
Yeah. And I think that, that, that bears when you, when you shared this with

00:22:26.269 --> 00:22:31.789
us initially, it was funny because I was in the middle of a negotiation and

00:22:31.789 --> 00:22:34.649
I remember hearing you and thinking to myself,

00:22:34.829 --> 00:22:37.129
that's the barrier. It's not the what, it's the how.

00:22:37.529 --> 00:22:42.289
We were not in sync. The person I was negotiating with was not in sync with

00:22:42.289 --> 00:22:43.969
me in terms of how we were going to progress.

00:22:44.249 --> 00:22:47.869
We were absolutely locked in in terms of what we were tackling,

00:22:47.869 --> 00:22:51.969
but how we were going to get there and how we were going to move forward was

00:22:51.969 --> 00:22:54.849
completely off the table. And we were both making assumptions.

00:22:55.189 --> 00:22:59.889
And I think that things can go sideways without even, you're thinking you're

00:22:59.889 --> 00:23:00.809
going, you're going, you're going.

00:23:01.349 --> 00:23:04.889
You're locked in. And then next thing you know, it falls off the rails because

00:23:04.889 --> 00:23:06.229
he never thought about the how.

00:23:06.469 --> 00:23:10.349
How are we going to progress this timeline or get to a decision point here?

00:23:10.469 --> 00:23:14.689
How are we going to document it? How are we going to share this information with everybody else?

00:23:15.269 --> 00:23:21.289
And that was just such a huge moment for me personally. And I've been at this for a very long time.

00:23:21.469 --> 00:23:24.869
And for me to find a blind spot was miraculous.

00:23:25.209 --> 00:23:26.629
So I want to thank you for that.

00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:30.789
And I find that to be the case everywhere I go too.

00:23:30.929 --> 00:23:34.809
I've seen it in a few instances where people are just like, I got what I want

00:23:34.809 --> 00:23:36.169
and they go running off to the races.

00:23:36.429 --> 00:23:41.809
And it's like, you actually don't, you didn't agree on the content or how you're

00:23:41.809 --> 00:23:44.449
going to go about it or the relationship itself in terms of how you're going

00:23:44.449 --> 00:23:46.389
to progress and be there for that person.

00:23:46.889 --> 00:23:48.469
So that's incredible. What kind

00:23:48.469 --> 00:23:54.269
of blind spots do you see people have in relation to relationships? Hmm.

00:23:57.111 --> 00:24:01.731
So one thing that's helpful is you can think about it from sort of a forward-facing

00:24:01.731 --> 00:24:03.991
direction, like how are we going to find an agreement?

00:24:04.151 --> 00:24:09.271
How am I working with this person? But you can also shift and think about negotiations

00:24:09.271 --> 00:24:12.911
from the opposite direction and think about, you know, why might they say no?

00:24:13.611 --> 00:24:17.731
Why might they dislike this? Why might they dislike me? And not to introduce,

00:24:17.731 --> 00:24:22.751
you know, negative thinking, but specifically to identify ways that we might

00:24:22.751 --> 00:24:25.611
be creating some of that resistance that we talked about.

00:24:25.891 --> 00:24:32.111
And I think one thing that I see a lot of times is that we don't recognize how

00:24:32.111 --> 00:24:39.631
good people are at sort of understanding some of the underlying relational aspects.

00:24:40.071 --> 00:24:44.951
So an example would be if I think that I could do your job better than you could

00:24:44.951 --> 00:24:47.451
do your job, that's going to come out in how we interact.

00:24:47.751 --> 00:24:52.511
And I may never say that. I may think that I have it totally under wraps.

00:24:52.511 --> 00:24:55.191
But probably you're going to get the

00:24:55.191 --> 00:24:57.931
vibe right and it might be it might

00:24:57.931 --> 00:25:01.111
be super subtle it might it's you know not a passive aggressive comment

00:25:01.111 --> 00:25:04.411
but it's just something in how we interact with each other and so

00:25:04.411 --> 00:25:08.431
i think the thing that people miss a lot of times is how much their own internal

00:25:08.431 --> 00:25:13.531
narrative affects how they interact with other people and then that can create

00:25:13.531 --> 00:25:17.511
that kind of resistance and so they're looking at it on paper and they're like

00:25:17.511 --> 00:25:21.131
everything works like you know all of my prep makes sense.

00:25:21.311 --> 00:25:24.551
And what I'm asking them, you know, what I'm asking them for should be fine.

00:25:24.551 --> 00:25:28.191
And I think I'm asking them in a nice way, but there can be that blind spot

00:25:28.191 --> 00:25:31.831
of your, the internal story and how you talk to yourself is affecting others.

00:25:32.011 --> 00:25:34.631
And then their internal story and how they're talking to themselves.

00:25:34.931 --> 00:25:39.231
And it can, can really, you can kind of resonate with each other and create

00:25:39.231 --> 00:25:42.211
sort of a negative feedback loop with that.

00:25:42.511 --> 00:25:44.891
Yeah, no, I love that because you're totally right.

00:25:45.211 --> 00:25:50.591
You think you have a great poker face, but that dialogue and the real thoughts

00:25:50.591 --> 00:25:54.131
and emotions that you bring to the table are there and they're probably resonant

00:25:54.131 --> 00:25:56.531
even if they're not coming out of your mouth or they're not in the paper and

00:25:56.531 --> 00:25:57.791
they're not in the way you're framing it.

00:25:58.538 --> 00:26:03.338
Oftentimes, somebody else can read through that in terms of where you really

00:26:03.338 --> 00:26:05.598
are sitting in that relationship.

00:26:06.038 --> 00:26:11.838
So I once had a mentor say, your nonverbals are screaming loud and clear.

00:26:12.018 --> 00:26:15.918
I'm like, well, there you go. I guess it's true.

00:26:16.598 --> 00:26:21.998
Yes, for sure. I had an employee of mine point out to me one time that I use

00:26:21.998 --> 00:26:24.898
the word interesting, but interesting never means interesting.

00:26:25.418 --> 00:26:27.898
Interesting means I completely disagree with you.

00:26:28.798 --> 00:26:32.338
And I didn't recognize that about myself. And it wasn't until somebody pointed

00:26:32.338 --> 00:26:36.038
out to me that I realized, man, I thought I had that like totally poker faced.

00:26:36.538 --> 00:26:39.398
And they were like, no, we can totally tell when you completely disagree.

00:26:40.038 --> 00:26:43.898
Yeah, I don't hide it. I know that about myself. It took me a long time to learn

00:26:43.898 --> 00:26:45.878
that you're never going to hide this, Sandy.

00:26:46.078 --> 00:26:48.338
Like I am a very like plain vanilla.

00:26:48.838 --> 00:26:51.818
If I'm excited, you'll see it. If I'm annoyed, you'll see it.

00:26:51.938 --> 00:26:56.718
If I like it's horrible. but also it's good to know that about myself because

00:26:56.718 --> 00:27:00.498
then I know that in this situation, I probably need to have somebody else in

00:27:00.498 --> 00:27:03.018
that meeting to kind of catch me.

00:27:03.938 --> 00:27:06.678
If I start looking annoyed, they can pick it up, right?

00:27:06.998 --> 00:27:12.258
I always need to have a secondary in the room almost at times and I've learned that about myself.

00:27:12.458 --> 00:27:18.378
So I think there's a lot of knowledge that comes in knowing your own being and

00:27:18.378 --> 00:27:19.878
how you're going to show up into these spaces.

00:27:20.078 --> 00:27:22.338
It's also, I like how you stated that,

00:27:23.042 --> 00:27:27.062
you know, how you're meeting the other person.

00:27:27.202 --> 00:27:32.722
Because there are some, even on the other side of it, like as a woman in tech, bring this in, right?

00:27:32.942 --> 00:27:37.982
As a woman in tech, sometimes there's challenges just by being a woman that

00:27:37.982 --> 00:27:41.922
come to pass in some senior negotiations sometimes.

00:27:43.122 --> 00:27:48.262
And I've learned to like, let that go and just, hey, this is how it's going to be.

00:27:48.482 --> 00:27:52.422
I'm just going to go grab the next male counterpart that I have and have them

00:27:52.422 --> 00:27:55.822
negotiate on our behalf because obviously this isn't going to work and just move on.

00:27:56.282 --> 00:28:01.242
And it's happened sometimes and I don't love it, but it's out of my hands sometimes

00:28:01.242 --> 00:28:02.942
and you just have to move on with that.

00:28:03.262 --> 00:28:06.322
But other times there's just ways to deal with it. But yeah,

00:28:06.462 --> 00:28:09.302
I think there's a lot there too that goes instead.

00:28:10.422 --> 00:28:13.422
I guess one question I have for you, because again, we're talking,

00:28:13.742 --> 00:28:17.682
our listeners, a good amount of them are very technical in nature.

00:28:18.022 --> 00:28:23.722
What is one common mistake you've seen highly technical people make when negotiating

00:28:23.722 --> 00:28:26.642
and how can they avoid it? Yeah, for sure.

00:28:27.462 --> 00:28:30.542
We've already talked a little bit about assumptions. And I think that's definitely

00:28:30.542 --> 00:28:33.042
something that I see, making assumptions about the other side,

00:28:33.302 --> 00:28:36.682
making the assumption that your data speaks for itself, right?

00:28:36.982 --> 00:28:39.362
Those things I definitely see a lot.

00:28:39.762 --> 00:28:43.162
And we've talked about that a little bit. I think the other thing that I see

00:28:43.162 --> 00:28:48.802
is that it seems like with technical folks, I see a lot of people who agree

00:28:48.802 --> 00:28:52.442
to deals that are good enough, but they leave value on the table.

00:28:52.562 --> 00:28:56.302
And that's kind of negotiation language. So let's talk about it more concretely.

00:28:56.562 --> 00:29:02.162
But it might be that the arrangements for a project, the timeline,

00:29:02.382 --> 00:29:03.622
the contract, the expectations,

00:29:04.022 --> 00:29:09.502
the resources you have available is good enough, but there's a better arrangement

00:29:09.502 --> 00:29:12.022
out there. and it just takes time to find it.

00:29:12.780 --> 00:29:17.200
And willingness to hold an agreement lightly.

00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:22.880
So talk about it, come up with a solution, and then say, okay, that's one option.

00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:26.560
Let's put that aside for just a second and think about if there's another way

00:29:26.560 --> 00:29:30.960
we could approach this, another way to use resources, another way to think about

00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.140
the sequencing of the timeline.

00:29:33.040 --> 00:29:37.260
And there's a lot of reasons why I see people fall into that challenge.

00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.440
The first is that it's very hard once you get an agreement. It's very hard to

00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:44.840
step back from it, right? because negotiation can be anxiety producing.

00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:48.880
Most people want it to be over. And so if they get to something that's good

00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:50.440
enough, they might say yes to that.

00:29:50.900 --> 00:29:56.420
And the other thing is, you know, it's difficult sometimes to see things more

00:29:56.420 --> 00:29:59.220
than one way. And so being willing to take a second look.

00:29:59.660 --> 00:30:04.180
I think the thing that helps with that is recognizing that the first agreement

00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:06.380
doesn't have to go away just because you talk about a second one.

00:30:07.180 --> 00:30:10.100
It's still there as a great fallback. And if in five

00:30:10.100 --> 00:30:12.880
minutes you haven't come up with something else it's okay to

00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.680
go back to that you know or longer if you have more time

00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.820
but the willingness to do another

00:30:18.820 --> 00:30:23.860
round of iteration is something that i i see people do really well in their

00:30:23.860 --> 00:30:28.020
technical work but then they don't bring that over into the negotiation side

00:30:28.020 --> 00:30:35.260
i i like that i agree i haven't seen anything because i've seen it a few times

00:30:35.260 --> 00:30:38.400
especially when we're talking about like design principle,

00:30:38.620 --> 00:30:41.360
design conversations, design decisions,

00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:46.960
especially like even if it's like a specific facility that we're trying to build

00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:52.500
or the overarching architecture of a platform for a client, there are times

00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:53.660
where our team will be like, well,

00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.300
okay, they agreed to this, so that's what we're going to go do and hold on to

00:30:57.300 --> 00:31:01.600
that instead of just letting that simmer a little bit and then revisiting it

00:31:01.600 --> 00:31:05.200
one more time just to make sure that we're absolutely certain that perhaps,

00:31:05.360 --> 00:31:07.380
I mean, perhaps that's the overarching vision.

00:31:07.560 --> 00:31:11.120
And maybe there's a few options within that vision and giving ourselves some

00:31:11.120 --> 00:31:15.120
room to explore those options at a later date don't always materialize.

00:31:15.700 --> 00:31:20.620
Yeah. And the willingness to pause and come back to a conversation a second time or a third time.

00:31:21.860 --> 00:31:25.560
Everybody is busy and that can be, it can be hard when you're busy,

00:31:25.760 --> 00:31:28.780
but being willing to step away and come back, you just, you always see something new.

00:31:30.060 --> 00:31:36.440
Yeah. I mean, I think I've been guilty, you know, kind of trying to end a kind

00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:38.920
of a revisiting of a decision at times.

00:31:39.080 --> 00:31:41.340
It's like, we're already decided what we're doing.

00:31:41.620 --> 00:31:45.380
Why are we changing it? Why are we talking about it again? Let's just move forward.

00:31:45.780 --> 00:31:49.180
Whereas, you know, if you do take that moment to reflect and say,

00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:53.660
you know, did we miss something or, you know, can we think about it a little bit differently?

00:31:54.020 --> 00:31:59.340
We have come to a better outcome or a better answer. So I think it's that gentle reminder.

00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.980
You know, I think the outcome is always intended to be the same,

00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:04.880
but there's different paths to get there.

00:32:05.360 --> 00:32:09.900
It's something that I have to continue to remind myself to kind of take a moment

00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:10.940
and think about it as well.

00:32:11.709 --> 00:32:15.869
Yeah. And we're not proposing that everything is open for re-litigation all

00:32:15.869 --> 00:32:18.649
the time, right? Sometimes you got to make a plan, you got to execute on it.

00:32:19.289 --> 00:32:23.089
But while you're in that early stage, when you're defining things,

00:32:23.229 --> 00:32:25.569
or if you're, you know, take a pause to revisit some, you know,

00:32:25.689 --> 00:32:26.409
a particular direction,

00:32:26.749 --> 00:32:31.189
being willing to go the extra five minutes or to take a break and come back

00:32:31.189 --> 00:32:33.709
to it and look at it with fresh eyes, sleep on it, you know,

00:32:33.829 --> 00:32:39.129
before you agree to a particular direction or process or design specs, right?

00:32:39.329 --> 00:32:43.509
Those things just can be really valuable. And I think a lot of times people's,

00:32:43.569 --> 00:32:49.109
whether it's anxiety or, or just, you know, the, you get a little bit deep into

00:32:49.109 --> 00:32:53.749
the solution, it can be hard to see that there are other options that might be higher value.

00:32:54.329 --> 00:32:58.389
Yeah, absolutely. Or even like time has passed, you're down,

00:32:58.569 --> 00:33:04.509
down a road and you have new information that kind of changes the decision making. It's big.

00:33:05.329 --> 00:33:09.789
And even like with a case, like a litigation that happens, right?

00:33:09.889 --> 00:33:11.969
Somebody goes to jail and then there's new evidence.

00:33:12.249 --> 00:33:15.289
They want to relitigate it because there's new evidence. Maybe this person's

00:33:15.289 --> 00:33:20.009
actually not guilty, right? So I look at it the same way when it comes to projects and programs.

00:33:20.389 --> 00:33:23.989
You've gone down a path and maybe the team learns new information,

00:33:24.209 --> 00:33:28.609
gathers new data, and it should drastically change the outcome in terms of how

00:33:28.609 --> 00:33:30.949
you approach it, it's worth having that conversation.

00:33:31.109 --> 00:33:34.309
And I've seen teams just bury themselves. And we made this call.

00:33:34.449 --> 00:33:37.649
We were the ones that recommended it. We're just going to bury and die on this

00:33:37.649 --> 00:33:39.829
hill. And I'm just like, why?

00:33:40.029 --> 00:33:44.429
Like, why not have an honest conversation that perhaps, you know,

00:33:44.529 --> 00:33:47.649
we didn't have all the information and now we have more information and therefore

00:33:47.649 --> 00:33:50.369
we're doing the right thing by bringing this to your attention.

00:33:50.489 --> 00:33:51.789
And now it's your decision, right?

00:33:51.929 --> 00:33:56.029
Here's option A, go down the same path. Here's what we see happening and unfolding,

00:33:56.189 --> 00:33:59.469
option B, due to the new information, here's our recommendation.

00:33:59.789 --> 00:34:05.089
What do you think? Right? I don't think there's any harm in that whatsoever, but that's just me.

00:34:05.629 --> 00:34:08.189
Yeah. Well, I mean, look at the world that we live in. I mean,

00:34:08.369 --> 00:34:10.949
I mean, how many projects have we started?

00:34:11.329 --> 00:34:14.589
And then all of a sudden, Gen.ai came in and we're like, wait a minute,

00:34:14.749 --> 00:34:16.169
we've got a new way of doing this.

00:34:16.509 --> 00:34:21.649
Hold on. Let's rethink our design. Let's rethink our approach and take advantage

00:34:21.649 --> 00:34:25.849
of the newest and latest and greatest tools that are available to us.

00:34:26.009 --> 00:34:31.769
And we've changed direction and come out with a much better outcome faster than we had intended.

00:34:33.414 --> 00:34:37.874
Absolutely. Yeah, I think even more now. Absolutely.

00:34:38.754 --> 00:34:42.534
Clients who want to build things bespoke and then an application comes on the market that does it.

00:34:42.834 --> 00:34:48.814
It's like, oh, maybe we should stop this. You could just buy a license for that. For sure. For sure.

00:34:49.454 --> 00:34:54.334
I guess, Rachel, you mentioned that it's been rewarding.

00:34:54.534 --> 00:34:58.374
What is the most rewarding or surprising thing you've learned through teaching

00:34:58.374 --> 00:35:01.994
this topic, especially at MIT, where some of the best engineering minds come

00:35:01.994 --> 00:35:05.894
through there? Yeah, I think what I find to be most rewarding,

00:35:06.094 --> 00:35:08.294
and you have to remember, I'm an educator, I'm a teacher.

00:35:08.674 --> 00:35:15.414
So what I find most rewarding is seeing students who have amazing technical

00:35:15.414 --> 00:35:21.734
ability, you know, amazing analytical ability, develop this other muscle that

00:35:21.734 --> 00:35:23.314
just helps them go further faster.

00:35:23.854 --> 00:35:27.074
Being able to see that human layer and recognize that

00:35:27.074 --> 00:35:29.914
when someone says no to something or if

00:35:29.914 --> 00:35:34.654
they you know push them in a certain direction that those can be conversations

00:35:34.654 --> 00:35:39.234
and you can open those up and explore other paths right it doesn't have to just

00:35:39.234 --> 00:35:44.334
be no is no or a is b you know a is a excuse me a could be something else and

00:35:44.334 --> 00:35:49.114
i think that that translates so it not only works in the technical realm,

00:35:49.334 --> 00:35:53.894
but I also just absolutely moved by the number of times I hear back from my

00:35:53.894 --> 00:35:57.894
students, whether it's at MIT or within organizations, the amount that these

00:35:57.894 --> 00:35:58.874
skills help their families.

00:35:59.994 --> 00:36:06.054
I've had people send me emails after the fact and tell me that a concept from

00:36:06.054 --> 00:36:10.594
negotiation saved their marriage, you know, or I never thought I would be able

00:36:10.594 --> 00:36:12.734
to have a conversation with my father again.

00:36:13.034 --> 00:36:17.734
And we were able to figure out the core part of this. And so I know we're keeping

00:36:17.734 --> 00:36:21.614
the conversation in the technical realm, but my encouragement to anyone who

00:36:21.614 --> 00:36:25.474
is thinking about negotiation is it affects all the areas of your life.

00:36:25.874 --> 00:36:29.954
And you'll find it come out not just in your conversations with your teams at

00:36:29.954 --> 00:36:33.294
work, but in other realms as well.

00:36:33.734 --> 00:36:37.974
But would you say the term negotiation is a wrong term in that respect?

00:36:38.194 --> 00:36:43.194
Isn't it just collaborative decision making or I guess like,

00:36:43.314 --> 00:36:46.574
is there another term for this? Like, is that outdated?

00:36:46.974 --> 00:36:50.314
Well, it depends on what your definition of negotiation is.

00:36:50.574 --> 00:36:54.274
If your definition of negotiation is, you know, this is where we wear our like

00:36:54.274 --> 00:36:58.254
90s style suits and we walk into a conference room with a pad folio, right?

00:36:58.514 --> 00:37:01.034
Then sure, you know, you're not doing that at your kitchen table.

00:37:01.034 --> 00:37:06.954
But negotiation, if we use my definition and the definition of many of my colleagues,

00:37:07.174 --> 00:37:12.234
it's any interaction you have with another person or other people where you

00:37:12.234 --> 00:37:14.094
have a particular outcome you're trying to achieve.

00:37:15.022 --> 00:37:21.462
So that could be figuring out how to communicate better about your family's schedule.

00:37:21.662 --> 00:37:25.642
That could also be figuring out how a team is going to tackle,

00:37:25.642 --> 00:37:28.882
you know, a particularly challenging design request from a client.

00:37:29.502 --> 00:37:34.862
And I think that if we open up the definition to something closer to that,

00:37:35.162 --> 00:37:40.242
then we see that every time you interact with other people, you have the opportunity to negotiate.

00:37:40.242 --> 00:37:44.982
And it's, again, not coming from that place of, I have a goal here and I'm wanting

00:37:44.982 --> 00:37:49.682
to win, but how do we collectively in our interaction create the most value?

00:37:50.222 --> 00:37:54.682
And if you think about it that way, then all of a sudden you negotiate all day, every day.

00:37:55.482 --> 00:37:58.122
And I think that's encouraging because it reduces the pressure,

00:37:58.422 --> 00:38:01.162
right? You don't have to own the 90s style suit to be a good negotiator.

00:38:01.522 --> 00:38:06.502
But also it reminds us that when we're not tuned in and we're not listening

00:38:06.502 --> 00:38:08.742
to this, we're just, we're missing opportunities.

00:38:09.522 --> 00:38:13.402
It's funny. I know Anjali where you're about to say, but I'll go before you.

00:38:15.542 --> 00:38:19.202
It's interesting because my, my five-year-old niece already knows how to negotiate.

00:38:19.642 --> 00:38:22.522
She knows how to negotiate and she's better at me than I am.

00:38:22.642 --> 00:38:27.162
Like she's at it every single time because she, she knows the relationship.

00:38:27.322 --> 00:38:29.742
She knows the how she already has the content.

00:38:29.942 --> 00:38:33.502
Like she's figuring out the assumptions are wrong half the time.

00:38:33.682 --> 00:38:36.962
Like she's got it. Like it is, it blows my mind. And Anjali,

00:38:37.142 --> 00:38:41.142
you have a small child at home. I'm sure you're constantly negotiating with her as well.

00:38:41.842 --> 00:38:45.762
Constantly. I mean, I'm literally negotiating from the minute she wakes.

00:38:45.862 --> 00:38:50.922
Well, I try to wake her up to the minute I try to convince her that it's time to go to sleep.

00:38:51.162 --> 00:38:53.982
You know, it's literally one negotiation after another.

00:38:54.182 --> 00:38:57.422
And to your point, Sandy, like they know all the assumptions.

00:38:57.422 --> 00:39:00.322
They know where my thinking is flawed compared to their own.

00:39:01.342 --> 00:39:04.282
They know exactly what they want the outcome to

00:39:04.282 --> 00:39:06.942
be and things that are important to me like a

00:39:06.942 --> 00:39:13.042
clean house and a well-rested child you know how to get around that those are

00:39:13.042 --> 00:39:17.182
crazy goals by the way crazy tell me about it tell me about it i spent six years

00:39:17.182 --> 00:39:21.462
learning how wrong i am on those things well and i think this raises a really

00:39:21.462 --> 00:39:24.522
important question right which is why do we lose that.

00:39:26.062 --> 00:39:32.742
Kids are amazing negotiators and you watch them and you would probably be able

00:39:32.742 --> 00:39:36.662
to rattle these off even quicker than I can, but they are persistent.

00:39:37.042 --> 00:39:40.662
They are not concerned about the impact of their reputation.

00:39:41.222 --> 00:39:49.062
They are willing to ask a third and fourth time for something or about something

00:39:49.062 --> 00:39:57.162
and they are quick to like see opportunities and then use that as another way to, you know, reframe.

00:39:57.402 --> 00:39:59.782
And I'm sure there's a million other things on the list, right?

00:39:59.882 --> 00:40:03.122
Those are just the ones that come to mind. But, you know, why do we lose those

00:40:03.122 --> 00:40:04.942
things? And what's the value of getting them back?

00:40:05.732 --> 00:40:09.392
The reason why I brought it up is because there was something you said earlier

00:40:09.392 --> 00:40:13.752
about the students realizing that a no is never really a no.

00:40:14.012 --> 00:40:15.212
There's something behind that no.

00:40:15.792 --> 00:40:19.992
And my niece does that really well. If I say no, or I see her dad say no,

00:40:20.072 --> 00:40:27.692
or her mom say no, or any grandparent never says no, but in case they do, she always asks why.

00:40:27.892 --> 00:40:30.512
Like, what did I miss? Like, she's trying to figure out, okay,

00:40:30.572 --> 00:40:35.452
I got that reaction. I'm trying to understand, like, why I got that reaction.

00:40:35.452 --> 00:40:37.892
It's that curiosity, right?

00:40:38.092 --> 00:40:40.492
Mindset. And there's a lot to learn in that.

00:40:41.052 --> 00:40:44.052
Kind of like, don't take a no for an answer.

00:40:44.172 --> 00:40:48.412
Find out what's behind that no and be curious in that conversation,

00:40:48.412 --> 00:40:51.012
in that negotiation. Yeah, absolutely.

00:40:52.392 --> 00:40:57.712
You know, I think a guiding principle of mine is, you know, and this is not

00:40:57.712 --> 00:41:02.352
the most eloquent thing, but the way I think about it is most problems are solvable.

00:41:02.892 --> 00:41:05.332
And the ones that aren't solvable, that's okay.

00:41:06.072 --> 00:41:11.352
You know, you have to explore that if something feels unsolvable to begin with,

00:41:11.532 --> 00:41:15.032
you maybe don't know enough yet. You need to ask some more questions and learn more.

00:41:15.252 --> 00:41:19.892
You need to be willing to go another round, right, of that creative iteration we talked about.

00:41:20.112 --> 00:41:23.392
You need to be willing to take their perspective and see if you can figure out

00:41:23.392 --> 00:41:24.392
how to reduce resistance.

00:41:24.992 --> 00:41:27.752
And if you do all of those things and you find out that the problem is still

00:41:27.752 --> 00:41:30.612
not solvable, don't stay awake at night thinking about it.

00:41:30.752 --> 00:41:34.552
You know, it's okay to walk away and you should know when you should walk away.

00:41:34.892 --> 00:41:40.912
But that idea that most, man, most things are solvable or at least,

00:41:40.912 --> 00:41:42.372
you know, worth the attempt.

00:41:43.212 --> 00:41:48.212
Yeah. So Rachel, is that the advice when you realize that, you know,

00:41:48.332 --> 00:41:52.532
a negotiation is going badly or it's not going the way that you want it to?

00:41:52.712 --> 00:41:56.972
Is it, you know, kind of determine whether or not the problem is solvable or

00:41:56.972 --> 00:42:01.712
is there something else that our listeners should be considering when when things

00:42:01.712 --> 00:42:04.072
aren't really going the way that they were hoping they would?

00:42:04.692 --> 00:42:09.492
Totally. I would say that the first thing is master the art of a graceful pause.

00:42:10.032 --> 00:42:16.732
For me, that usually looks like some sort of summary statements and then a good

00:42:16.732 --> 00:42:21.052
enough justification to take a minute to take a break and then be able to come

00:42:21.052 --> 00:42:23.892
back to it. It gives you a chance to refocus.

00:42:24.152 --> 00:42:28.092
It gives you know, if any emotions have gotten involved, it gives your your

00:42:28.092 --> 00:42:32.572
body time to process those things so that you can come back to the conversation in a focused way.

00:42:33.332 --> 00:42:38.312
And it also gives you the ability to reflect on whether or not this is a problem

00:42:38.312 --> 00:42:45.292
that you can solve, or maybe even more importantly, are your current ideas about

00:42:45.292 --> 00:42:47.932
how you're going to solve it, maybe any concessions also that you're making,

00:42:48.232 --> 00:42:50.412
do those align with your goals and objectives?

00:42:50.732 --> 00:42:56.092
Because it's very easy in the moment to agree to things or compromise on things

00:42:56.092 --> 00:43:00.792
that aren't right for you. And so the graceful pause is critical.

00:43:01.432 --> 00:43:04.592
And the other thing is, is you need to get comfortable with the idea that you

00:43:04.592 --> 00:43:05.192
can't solve everything.

00:43:06.699 --> 00:43:11.499
And trying, continuously trying to solve something or compromise or make someone

00:43:11.499 --> 00:43:16.339
agree to something, whether it's a client who has unreasonable requests or a

00:43:16.339 --> 00:43:17.959
team dynamic that you're really wrestling with,

00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:21.299
you know, sometimes you have to be honest with yourself about how much you're

00:43:21.299 --> 00:43:23.979
compromising and whether or not that's a good deal or a good,

00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:27.639
you know, a good outcome. Yeah, that's great.

00:43:28.319 --> 00:43:34.159
So, Rachel, I'm very curious if our listeners or anybody listening to this podcast

00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:36.579
would be interested in working with you, learning more from you.

00:43:36.959 --> 00:43:40.499
What other ways could they interact with you? Is it through LinkedIn?

00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:45.779
Do you have other things coming out, et cetera, that maybe they can look forward to? Yeah, for sure.

00:43:45.999 --> 00:43:50.839
So I teach at MIT, but then the majority of my time is spent with organizations.

00:43:50.939 --> 00:43:56.399
So that could look like coming out and teaching a workshop or helping consult

00:43:56.399 --> 00:43:58.259
on a particularly difficult client deal.

00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:03.219
That's where I do the best learning is out in the field working with folks,

00:44:03.359 --> 00:44:04.399
especially technical folks.

00:44:04.399 --> 00:44:07.999
And while I've been out, you know, doing that kind of work, something that I've

00:44:07.999 --> 00:44:13.639
found is that there's an interesting, a lot of interesting things to notice

00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:19.239
and to find unique ways to deal with this concept of resistance.

00:44:19.759 --> 00:44:23.659
And so I am actually working on a book about this idea of addressing resistance

00:44:23.659 --> 00:44:27.219
and thinking about negotiation through the lens of why someone might say no.

00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:31.679
And that is a project that it's, you know, a work in progress.

00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:34.779
And I'm going to be out in the world researching and working on and formulating

00:44:34.779 --> 00:44:37.099
that for the next, for the foreseeable future.

00:44:37.099 --> 00:44:42.839
But the work is really what motivates me to work on things like that,

00:44:42.879 --> 00:44:46.139
because the more I'm with organizations and seeing what they're dealing with,

00:44:46.279 --> 00:44:49.999
the more I get to learn from them and the more that we get to really synthesize

00:44:49.999 --> 00:44:52.139
across technical organizations, especially,

00:44:52.399 --> 00:44:54.499
and really crystallize what's working.

00:44:55.200 --> 00:44:58.020
I love that. I love that you're focusing on that, on resistance,

00:44:58.260 --> 00:45:01.700
because like objection handling, right?

00:45:01.940 --> 00:45:06.380
Like anybody who has kind of like this, nope, not going to go that way.

00:45:06.580 --> 00:45:10.720
Just stop the trains. And a lot of people just look like deers in the headlights

00:45:10.720 --> 00:45:15.320
in those situations where there is a form of resistance and you just can't get

00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:18.220
past it because you haven't, you either didn't pregame,

00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:21.280
as you said, and you want to pregame and think about what could be some of the

00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:25.180
objections that come up in this conversation and be prepared for how you're going to do it.

00:45:25.200 --> 00:45:29.880
Those parts of the conversation is critical in negotiations for sure.

00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:33.160
So I'm glad you're focused there because I think that's mostly what derails

00:45:33.160 --> 00:45:36.140
people these days, for sure. Totally agree.

00:45:37.260 --> 00:45:40.420
We can't leave an episode without me asking about AI.

00:45:40.900 --> 00:45:48.760
So over the last year, year and a half, how have you seen AI change how we negotiate?

00:45:49.180 --> 00:45:53.520
There are a couple of things that are particularly interesting about AI in negotiation.

00:45:53.700 --> 00:45:56.800
And there's a lot of this is resources being done now.

00:45:57.240 --> 00:46:02.120
One thing that I'm seeing is that AI is being used as a tool to teach negotiation.

00:46:02.540 --> 00:46:06.640
You can negotiate with a chatbot, get some exposure to some initial concepts.

00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:10.160
You can also use chatbots for preparation.

00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:16.500
So you can leverage them to help formulate your logic, formulate your storytelling.

00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:20.520
There's a really great project out at MIT that's working specifically on that.

00:46:21.180 --> 00:46:28.000
The other thing that comes to mind for me is just the The power of AI to help

00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:32.180
us prepare and quickly gather information,

00:46:32.600 --> 00:46:37.980
pull in a bunch of somewhat synthesized ideas and use that as a way to understand

00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:42.800
an organization or an industry or a particular project direction is really powerful.

00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:48.140
The downside of that is that something AI does really beautifully is summarize.

00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:56.400
And a lot of what is so valuable in my industry is getting the conversation

00:46:56.400 --> 00:47:02.760
to come down one or two clicks into more of what people are experiencing or what they've observed.

00:47:02.980 --> 00:47:05.060
Where does that assumption come from?

00:47:05.540 --> 00:47:10.420
What is that idea based in? And so something that AI does really well is it

00:47:10.420 --> 00:47:13.640
helps us to move quickly and to be able to work sort of at the summary level.

00:47:13.640 --> 00:47:17.820
And I think that folks who learn to leverage that really effectively will do

00:47:17.820 --> 00:47:22.580
well, especially if they pair it with continuing to build the muscle of learning

00:47:22.580 --> 00:47:25.560
how to engage deeply in what's the underlying layer.

00:47:25.740 --> 00:47:31.140
What's the data, right? What are the things that they have to look at first

00:47:31.140 --> 00:47:33.460
to be able to understand sort of the summary of the headline?

00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:39.079
Right. I love that. I agree. Too many people stay up here. Devil's in the details.

00:47:41.439 --> 00:47:46.619
That's great. And I actually use ChatGPT to prep for meetings.

00:47:47.259 --> 00:47:50.819
There's like the first use case I started to use it for.

00:47:50.979 --> 00:47:53.359
It was absolutely the first use case. Like, let me think through,

00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:56.499
here's kind of where I'm coming from. What are my assumptions?

00:47:56.979 --> 00:47:59.979
And I'll ask it, like, drive out what you think my assumptions are.

00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:01.839
Drive out what some objections might be.

00:48:01.999 --> 00:48:06.099
Drive out. and I'll just have it like kind of put me in that different mind

00:48:06.099 --> 00:48:08.279
frame because sometimes I can't get there by myself, right?

00:48:08.459 --> 00:48:12.259
So it's nice to have a partner in thinking through that. And obviously I don't

00:48:12.259 --> 00:48:16.139
take all of it for freedom, but it definitely helps ignite kind of that creativity

00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:18.479
that might be missing in myself.

00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:20.799
So love that. Powerful.

00:48:21.739 --> 00:48:24.559
Well, Rachel, it's been a rewarding 45 minutes.

00:48:24.759 --> 00:48:27.739
So thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us.

00:48:27.919 --> 00:48:32.099
I will make sure that there's links to you or your website so people can reach

00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:35.099
out to you if they want to work with you and your organization.

00:48:35.419 --> 00:48:39.479
But thank you again for sharing your knowledge with our listeners and for,

00:48:39.499 --> 00:48:41.419
you know, just being so awesome.

00:48:41.619 --> 00:48:45.499
I love it. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's always a joy and we'll get

00:48:45.499 --> 00:48:48.879
into more negotiation and maybe parenting techniques next time around.

00:48:49.339 --> 00:48:51.499
Yeah. Sounds great. There's a book in there.

00:48:52.279 --> 00:48:53.839
That's the question with your toddler.

00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:57.399
Awesome. Awesome.

00:49:00.879 --> 00:49:01.319
You.